We were planning on reflecting on SG-1 Seasons Two and Three for this episode with Robert C. Cooper, but we ended up receiving over 60 questions for the man, so have decided to turn this PRE-RECORDED episode almost entirely over to the fans! Enjoy!
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Timecodes
00:00 – Opening Credits
00:26 – Welcome and Episode Outline
01:54 – Introduction of Robert, Writing 40 Episodes a Year, and Budgets
08:51 – Remembering Willie Garson
13:22 – RDA and the Chemistry with Other Actors, Tom McBeath, Gary Jones, and Dom DeLuise
14:49 – Arthurian Mythology, and the Ori in Seasons Nine and Ten
19:23 – When was there a sense SG-1 would be such a huge success?
22:42 – Cast Transitions, and Janet Fraiser and “Heroes”
29:29 – Any thoughts to Jonas returning in Seasons Eight to Ten?
29:07 – Guest Actors Returning as Different Characters
36:13 – Vala’s Disappearance through the Ring Transporter
39:22 – Regrets on Deleted Scenes, “Threads” and Teal’c Scenes
43:41 – Stargate Turning Darker, Promoting on SYFY, and Longevity
50:04 – Filming SG4 in a Foreign Country?
55:30 – Gun and Prop Use and Safety
1:01:48 – How emotional was “Meridian” to write?
1:03:12 – Mel Harris and Other Celebrity fans
1:06:54 – Galaxy Quest and Parody
1:08:25 – Hurdles Creating Shows Then VS Now
1:12:25 – Art Imitating Life, “Unending,” Credence Clear Water Revival and “Vegas”
1:16:30 – Joel Goldsmith’s Collection
1:18:28 – Supporting Guest Character
1:18:56 – Advise for Aspiring Writers
1:25:51 – Final Thoughts from a Fan
1:27:51 – Wrapping up with Robert
1:32:34 – Post interview housekeeping
1:34:44 – End Credits
***
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TRANSCRIPT
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David Read
Hello, and welcome to Dial the Gate. My name is David Read. Robert C. Cooper is joining us once again, for part five of his ongoing interview series with us. We were gonna go into Season Two originally and then y’all submitted so many questions over the course of two days that I was like, “We’ve got to use these for the majority of the discussion.” So that’s what we did. We’re taking a break from going through specific episodes and just kind of easing back and going over what you, the fans, have submitted. So that’s going to be the plan for this episode. Pretty much everything that’s been asked is going to be by the fans in this one. Because this is a pre-recorded episode, you’re more than welcome to take part in the live chat, but it’s a pre recorded show so the moderators are not going to be taking any questions for Rob at this time. If you like Stargate and you want to see more content like this on YouTube, it would mean a great deal if you click the Like button, it really makes a difference with YouTube’s algorithm and will definitely help the show continue to grow its audience. Please also consider sharing this video with a Stargate friend, and if you want to get notified about future episodes, click the Subscribe icon. Giving the Bell icon a click will notify you the moment a new video drops and you’ll get my notifications of any last minute guests changes. And clips from this live stream will be released over the course of the next several days on both the Dial the Gate and GateWorld.net YouTube channels. That’s enough babbling from me, let’s go to Robert C. Cooper. Robert C. Cooper, joining us for season two on Dial the Gate. Sir, it is such a pleasure to have you back, thank you so much for being with us. This is a privilege.
Robert C. Cooper
Nice to be here. Season two. How does that work?
David Read
So I took a break over the summer and so I called that season one. We ended with 100 episodes and it was a big hoopla. We had the Atlantis casts, seven or eight of them, for San Diego Comic-Con. So we recorded in June and that aired in July and it was a big deal. The channel exploded from 11,000 members — subscribers — to now 19,000 we’re at right now.
Robert C. Cooper
Wow, congratulations!
David Read
Thank you. I’m very thankful.
Robert C. Cooper
100 episodes, too, that’s a lot of work.
David Read
I don’t think we’re gonna be able to do that this season. I was like, “You know what, let’s just see where this goes and all. We can dial it back…”
David Read
Or you can do… you can at least do, like, 95 with Mallozzi and then make the rest up with us schmoes.
David Read
Well, you know… oh my gosh, schmoes, give me a break. I mean, I’m starting to think kind of like how you guys probably felt when going from 20 to 40 at season eight and season one, respectively. I mean, at some point, you must have been thinking, “Okay, quality? Quantity? Where do we draw the line here? We have our A ideas that we’ve been meditating on over the offseason and now some of the B ideas or C ideas are going to have to come into the fray.” Did it ever look like that? Did you ever think to yourself, “You know what, we have 40 frickin’ stories to tell in a 52 week year. This is not possible.”
Robert C. Cooper
Well…
David Read
No one would do that nowadays.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, but I mean, look, we… the main trick is to bring in new minds, bring in new people who have different ideas who aren’t as familiar with the canon who are going to break the mold a little bit and add to that board. And then a season one with Atlantis, it was fresh, there were fresh stories to tell with the characters, new characters, or some borrowed from from from SG-1, but I don’t think there was a lack of ideas for Atlantis. And again, getting back to a previous conversation we had about SG-1, I think the way in which we continually energized that show is by embracing the change and making sure that we were rethinking the show.
David Read
You’re making a movie, essentially, every week on a television series budget, which was around $4 million an episode.
Robert C. Cooper
Oh, not for season one of Atlantis.
David Read
Not for season one of Atlantis. That was the question I was going to…
Robert C. Cooper
The only way we could have made Atlantis, even gotten it in the can, was through the efficiencies of having both shows running concurrently. So, if we had tried to mount Atlantis on its own, at the budget we were given, which was significantly — I don’t think I’m giving away any secrets here — but it was like significantly under two.
David Read
For season one.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah. And so, there’s other calculations involved in terms of tax credits and what have you, but we were using both shows to support each other, in terms of stages and sets, and we had one office for both shows and a lot of staff — the office staff — would work on both. There were significant savings, and SG-1, at that time, having grown, I mean, one of the economics of production is that as the show goes on, it gets more expensive but you don’t actually put it on the screen, because that’s going to salary increases for cast and crew. But it’s still… SG-1 had a healthy budget at that point so we could kind of beg, borrow and steal where we needed to. There were a couple of times when I felt a little tension from the SG-1 side of things, going, “How come Atlantis is getting that? Why aren’t we getting that?” And it’s like, “It’s the new show. It’s gotta do well.”
David Read
I remember the scene where Vala’s sitting on the bench, in Washington, at the budget hearing and they’re saying, “You know what, we’ve got to earmark funds for the Atlantis expedition. You guys can run on 10 to 20% of your budget and you’re not… I mean, you think it’s a big deal, but it’s really not.” And I remember thinking to myself at the time, “I wonder how much of this echoed the conversations that they must have had last season when Atlantis came on.”
Robert C. Cooper
100%.
David Read
Of course!
Robert C. Cooper
It’s always… that’s how we stay sane. We just reflect the reality we’re living…
David Read
Imitate life.
Robert C. Cooper
…in the show. That was the thing about the — we were talking about 100th episode for you — is, that was the thing about the 100th and the 200th, is that was our chance to kind of have fun with the reality of the making of the show and what we went through and that was sort of our… I know that some hardcore fans — let’s not say all hardcore fans — but some of them didn’t appreciate those episodes, because they thought we were mocking the show, but…
David Read
They can go to hell. Did I say that out loud? I’m sorry. You don’t have to go to hell…
Robert C. Cooper
You just went down to, like, 17’000.
David Read
I’m sorry.
Robert C. Cooper
‘I’m sorry’ is not going to fix… the ticker is going down.
David Read
I don’t actually mean that, I’m just kidding. But, I mean, you have to have some levity. How else you’re going to do it? Especially when you have someone like Richard Dean Anderson, who’s not going to be dour. You have to break into it.
Robert C. Cooper
No, and that was the tone of the show. It’s why people liked the show. I mean, even now, I have people who sort of say, “Well, you’ve never done comedy before.” And I was like, “Uh… hmm… you haven’t seen our show, I guess?”
David Read
There’s no way. Yeah, they wouldn’t make that comment otherwise. Speaking of the 100th, we lost Willie Garson a few months ago.
Robert C. Cooper
Tragic. We’ve had a whole rash of people who’ve been with the show, pass away.
David Read
It was shocking, absolutely shocking. And you shared the story that you had with him, from the Wormhole X-Treme set, where he was saying — where you have your line of — and he was able to turn on a dime. I was wanting to ask if there was any other story that you remember of him during production, either from that episode or from the original, or from years later when he came back for 200?
Robert C. Cooper
Well, I mean… he was… it’s… producers are asked, writers are asked all the time, “What’s that person really like?” And they always say glowing things, and so it’s hard to separate the truth from the reality, from the lies. In the case of Willie he was just such… so genuinely a decent guy, and such a consummate professional and everyone loved being around him — it’s why we kept having him back — and tried to come up with reasons to put his character in the show. I mean, Rick was the ultimate litmus test. He was not the friendliest of guys to everybody, and he just loved Willie. He was just a sweetheart and his contributions always made things better too, like, that’s the… he wasn’t certainly… he didn’t do it a lot but he was always trying to make things work as best he could, but when he did make a suggestion, it was always fantastic. Yeah, we all sort of communicated with each other when that happened and it still sort of stings.
David Read
Absolutely it does. I remember having him on for Dial the Gate. I was very lucky to have him on, in season one, and he said, “I’m not really a sci-fi guy.” I did kind of the sci-fi tour for a little while with the miniseries that he was in on SyFy channel, I can’t remember the name right now — the chat is going to eat me alive — put it in chat, I don’t know what it is. But also Voyager and then SG-1. And he’s like, “This is not really my genre, but I just love doing it!” And he had such a wacky, over-the-top character, that everyone just bought hook, line and sinker. I mean, he was terrific, he was magnetic when he appeared on that screen.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, and I always loved the more meta aspects of his character in the show, and the episodes he was in. I think the key when doing something meta that really — in the case of 200 and 100 — almost forcefully broke the fourth wall, it is to keep it grounded, right? Make it still feel like it’s not a total farce, that there’s some tether to a real character there, and that’s what he was able to do as you still… you just felt for him. Even when he was being kind of a jerk, because the… It was funny to watch him get full of himself, right? He started as someone who was so, frankly, desperate in his situation, begging for help, and he turns into this sort of…
David Read
Producer.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, power hungry producer. I mean, we can all identify with that experience.
David Read
Absolutely. At certain points in our lives, depending on the situation that we’re in, he found his niche and I can’t imagine… I imagined he was a composite of different characters that you guys have probably, in your careers, worked with over the years.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, honestly, I just can’t imagine someone having something bad to say about him.
David Read
You tapped into something that I’ve heard repeatedly before, with Rick, where he was your lead, and you guys watched him — obviously — and if there was someone that… not to say that he didn’t, but if he ‘extra’ rose to the occasion with, then you guys took notice, and one of the others was Tom McBeath, where it’s like Rick would be extra ‘on’ when this guy was on. It’s like, “Well, you know what? Let’s have another show where you’ve got a good cop / bad cop, and put them in another situation together.”
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, for sure. If there was a regular guest… I mean, Gary was like that a lot, too, they got along.
David Read
Gary Jones, yes.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, Gary Jones, got along amazingly. But it also had to do, sometimes, with Rick just getting to know that person. You could see it instantaneously with people he had obvious reverence for, outside of the show, like when Dan Castellaneta came on.
David Read
Gosh, yeah.
Robert C. Cooper
Or Dom DeLuise. That was a special situation that we were all grateful to have experienced.
David Read
You want to talk about an amazing hour of television.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
Absolutely. I have over 60 questions submitted from fans.
Robert C. Cooper
Holy mackerel, okay.
David Read
I posted this two days ago and I was sitting…
Robert C. Cooper
Rapid fire? Can we do rapid fire answers?
David Read
I picked 16, and originally…
Robert C. Cooper
By the way, rapid fire answers are something that you should post that Rob Cooper is not capable of.
David Read
Well, I was sitting down a couple of days ago and I was like, “Okay, I’ve got to get the requests out.” And I sat down last night to cull them, and on one hand I’m thinking, “Season two of SG-1, we’re gonna go back, we’re gonna get into some history,” and I pull these up and I’m like, “60 questions. Okay, let’s see how many there are.” And I’ll be damned if I’m not going to give most of the show over to the fans for this one. So I’ve…
David Read
…gone through and yeah, I’m gonna give the lion’s share to them here. Michelle Lee wanted to know, “What inspired you to weave Arthurian mythology into seasons 9 and 10 as a way to battle the Ori? Do you personally enjoy Arthurian mythology? Was this your idea? Was this Brad’s? Joe’s? Paul’s?”
Robert C. Cooper
That’s good.
Robert C. Cooper
No, I mean, I loved it and I was looking for some other mythology that felt like what the show was, that we took mythologies or real history and put a twist on them, put our Stargate twist on them. So, I was looking for one that felt like it had some awareness in the fan base, and also, would be fun to explore and do our version of. It’s not unlike taking Atlantis, in the same way that we used Ancient… I can’t even take credit for it, the movie started with using Ancient Egyptian mythology. Yeah, it was just there, for the taking and I liked it. I think there was something about… we always looked at technology, as… the fact that technology to someone who didn’t understand it, could look like magic. So, that just sort of led me down the path of saying, “Look, what is other mythology that involves magic? And how is magic and can it be used story-wise to kind of enhance where we were going?” Which was the Ori story, which was about ascension and higher power and whether or not that was real or whether there was some veneer of magic involved. So yeah, I just felt like it was a story I had not seen with a sci-fi twist like that on, yet.
David Read
You bring in Merlin in The Quest [Part] 2. Was there ever talk of bringing in Arthur himself?
Robert C. Cooper
Um, yeah, I’m sure there was. I don’t remember it. Yeah, I don’t remember that part of it, but I felt like we kind of had… we wanted our characters to take on the mantle of the Knights. And then I didn’t want… yeah, I didn’t want someone to come in and sort of steal the show.
David Read
Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, Mitchell kind of picked up that mantle when he pulled the — successfully — pulled the sword from the stone. So that was kind of Arthur.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, well, yeah.
David Read
Absolutely. It’s like, “Yeah, duh, David, we’re not gonna bring in someone else, he’s kind of that role.”
Robert C. Cooper
No, no, no, I mean, it’s a valid question, I just think… you asked about it and I’m sure we talked about it, but it just seems more natural and forwarded our own character’s stories, to have them take on that. It was okay to have the mentor, essentially, there, but we wanted the hero that was called to action to be our guys.
David Read
That makes sense. JamieHitt, “When did you guys really know that you had lightning in a bottle with SG-1?” Obviously you started off greenlit, so with two seasons, four seasons, five seasons? When did you really get a sense, “Okay, not only do we have a long list of seasons to really expand stuff, but this is clicking.” Did you start seeing it on the screen? Was it on the page first? Was it when the four talent got together?
Robert C. Cooper
I mean, if you’re looking for a specific episode, I don’t know that I can pinpoint. I mean, they kept ordering it so we kept making it. And I do think it kept getting better, so that was the other thing that I think everybody felt was, that it was going in a positive direction. So, I don’t know that it was like a ‘fireworks going off’, epiphany moment, where we all were like, “This is great.” It’s a process, where you’re always working to try and make something better and there can be situations in which there are forces at work that are working against that and making it worse to the point where everybody bails out. In this case, I think everyone felt that it was getting better, consistently, and I think it was… I think it was honestly, for me, season four, when I felt like the show really kind of hit its stride and there were more episodes that I thought were successful, than ones that I thought were less successful.
David Read
To this day, season four is my favorite, I have to agree. It doesn’t contain my favorite episode, but in terms of the freshness of the stories, I think the balance of drama and humor really took off that season. Not to say that the earlier or later seasons don’t have their distinct quality, which they all do, but every season — okay, this is gonna sound stupid — kind of has like a vibration to it? You know, like the texture. When you look at this — as a viewer — when I look at the season, it’s like, “Okay, this is how I feel… I feel a sense, or like a color, of this season.” And season four is always, to this day, the warmest that I had of of SG-1, there was something special about that year.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I mean, I look at each one and see ups and downs, but…
David Read
You probably see your kids, when you look at each season. “Ah, this was going on at home, this was happening.”
Robert C. Cooper
I still have a affection for season seven, because of Heroes and the setup of Atlantis.
David Read
Wow.
Robert C. Cooper
Lost City.
David Read
I guess it was probably self evident that was the beginning of the hectic times. When season seven began production, is that when the conversations about Atlantis started taking place with SyFy behind the scenes?
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
Okay. All right. I wanted to ask you about cast transitions. Which do you think were some of the more successful? Which do you think were just more out of… They all happened for their different reasons. Jonas replace Daniel, Daniel replace Jonas, Cameron took over for Jack, Vala was introduced, Jennifer Keller replaced Carson, Samantha Carter replaced Dr. Weir, and Woolsey, eventually, replaced Carter as well. Now keep all that encapsulated and how do you feel about the cast transitions for those shows? And how…
Robert C. Cooper
I mean, I don’t know that I… Yeah, it’s gonna sound like I’m dodging, but I don’t know that I… I don’t know that I would… I never look at them as something I could rank. They all were necessary. They were necessitated by either things going on behind the scenes, or story. And so, I always saw them as something that had to happen. And in almost every case you mentioned, I think it was successful. It did what it needed to do. It brought new energy and chemistry to the show and I think with a couple of exceptions, I think the fans were always… maybe they didn’t like the change initially, but if you went back and said, “Well, would you take Woolsey out of the show?” They wouldn’t say, “No, I wouldn’t do that at all.” Did Jennifer Keller replace Frasier?
David Read
Carson.
Robert C. Cooper
Carson.
David Read
Yeah. So we lost him in Sunday and then you guys have… Sorry?
Robert C. Cooper
I sorry. I must have misheard you.
David Read
No, it’s okay. Yeah, I think there was at some point a process of potentially getting her in. If I’m misremembering something that Joe said…
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, the death of Frasier was obviously the one that was most controversial for the fans, and that one I never saw as being one where we ever really replaced her. That was not so much of a… that was not a casting decision, that was a story decision.
David Read
To be fair, I did not put her on this list.
Robert C. Cooper
No.
David Read
Because I was thinking of that, I was like… I don’t really see… there was a series of doctors who came in after, but yeah, going back to, that was… you guys were, “There wasn’t gonna be a season eight.” This was it and had there only been seven seasons of SG-1, I don’t think anyone would have complained.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
I mean, not, I mean, there would have… Okay, there would have been a few complainers, but in the scheme of things, plans change, and it is still, I think, one of just… this was going to be a home run anyway, but Heroes, that really hit it out of the park in terms of putting your money where your mouth is and saying, “You know what, this is what we’re saying about true heroes and the people who are out there who have taken up the call.”
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
Either fighting fires or fighting overseas.
Robert C. Cooper
As a viewer, growing up, obviously a huge fan of television, I always recognized that having a character who you got to know over multiple episodes in multiple seasons, with someone you grew closer to than anyone you could ever get close to in a movie, like, when a character died in a movie, it was sad, and you certainly had a reaction to it, but it was never the same as when a long standing character, that you were a huge fan of, died in a series. And so, as a writer, how could you not want to — certainly don’t want to do it all the time, you don’t want to be the grim reaper of television — but, how could you not want to write about that type of loss? That’s what we do, right? That’s what we want to get in there and play with, is the emotion that goes along with life. And so, yeah, it was not something that I would have done again.
David Read
This is not — to harken back to a show that my parents love — this is not This Is Us. This is a military show. This is a conflict series where war is very much happening. So I think that it added some legitimacy, much like Tasha Yar’s death that The Next Generation did. People can be taken from us at any point. The same as what happened with Daniel except it was just a little bit more metaphysical.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I mean, look, it wasn’t a comedy, it was a drama, a science fiction action show, but that had all those elements; drama and comedy. And yeah, for the most part, it was meant to be fun and maybe make you think, but it was not… We never pretended to suggest it was going to shy away from some issues every now and then.
David Read
Jack wanted to know, “Were there ever any ideas thrown around for Jonas to pop up in the last three seasons of SG-1?” Langara gets a mention in, I believe it’s season 10, where they’ve been taken by the Ori, but other than that, there’s not much of a reference after Fallout.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I can’t remember, honestly. I can’t remember… I’m sure there were conversations about how to include him or bring him back, but I don’t remember any specific stories I can relay.
David Read
Okay. Jupiter 2 wanted to know, “Was it an easy decision in sometimes having the same guest actors appear in the series more than once, even through a different character? Or was it a struggle because of the recognition?”
Robert C. Cooper
Well, have you ever gone through the list on IMDb of how many actors are in SG-1?
David Read
It’s a lot, and Vancouver wasn’t that big a town.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, how many human beings do you think we could find to read lines over the course of 14 seasons. So, we really tried hard not to cast the same actor in the same series, but if we were switching shows…
David Read
Garwin Sanford, for instance.
Robert C. Cooper
What choice did we have? I mean Garwin is a super talented actor and he was right for the role. And, by the way, everyone in the show was acting.
David Read
It’s not actually them! Yeah, it’s a fair point to be made. When online, people… there are a number of fans that I’ve come across who were like, “It really breaks the illusion for me if they’re not under, like, a rubber mask or something.” I’m like, “Well, I mean, if it comes down to having the right talent, and having a repeat face, at a certain point, you have to be swept away by the narrative and knowing that these are actors performing on a stage, and that there’s…” It’s, “Where do you draw the line?” You have to draw the line in buying what you’re seeing.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I mean, look, I totally agree with you, but I would also add that it’s two things, it’s the narrative and the performance. I mean, if the actor is good enough — and that’s usually why we would cast them — it is that you’d go, “Oh, hey, that was so and so.” But then, whatever, five minutes into their performance in the show, you’re like, “No, they’re that person,” because they’ve taken you there, they’ve done something different, they’ve brought something to the role. And that’s why we… Reese Witherspoon has been in a few television shows in the last little while, often on the air at the same time, and I still tune in and watch it, knowing it’s Reese Witherspoon. And I’m there to see, in part, what she does with this role, this different role and also look at that story as a different animal than what I just watched on another channel. And it’s the same with movies, I mean.
David Read
I don’t know if you recall…
Robert C. Cooper
It’s interesting because you see people talk about the other, like, the DC and the Marvel Universe and I think they’re probably pretty good in terms of wanting to not cast, obviously, not cast a character again, within a different movie, that is playing a different character within the Marvel Universe. They’re also even careful about whether they take someone from DC and put them in Marvel, I know that happens. But then they also kind of poked fun at it in Wanda, right? Where…
David Read
Yeah, absolutely, with what’s-his-face? Runs really fast. I can’t think of his name.
Robert C. Cooper
Yes.
David Read
Yeah. Or, my favorite is Green Lantern in Deadpool. That’s just right in the face.
Robert C. Cooper
Deadpool is not breaking the fourth wall, it’s on our side of the fourth wall.
David Read
Right, exactly.
Robert C. Cooper
He’s sitting beside us on the couch going, “That’s pretty funny, huh?”
David Read
Even when he brings up Xavier, “Stewart or McAvoy?” I’m like, “Okay, that’s too far!” I have a really hard time believing anything that I’m seeing at that point.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, but again, in that case it doesn’t matter, you’re not there for the reality of it.
David Read
That’s true.
David Read
Oh, my God, yes.
Robert C. Cooper
You’re there for the spectacle and the performance. It’s the same as when you see a live… when you see a play, or a live performance, or a comedian on stage, you’re not under the illusion that this is reality that you’re seeing, right? It’s a performance and you’re there to see the spectacle of the performance and the talent that is doing something extraordinary, that is entertaining. That is different from whether or not we are fulfilling our commitment to 100% portray reality in a realistic way. They’re two different things and it’s like, “We’re here to entertain you. And there’s some times when I am asking you to believe the conceit, that what I’m doing is reflecting a reality with a groundedness that is meant to engage you in a story that’s feels quote ‘real’, and if I don’t succeed in that, then that is a failure.” So if there’s a continuity error, and there’s a Starbucks cup in Game of Thrones…
Robert C. Cooper
Then that’s going to pop me out of that reality, right? That’s going to pop me out of whatever real world they’re trying to create. And I understand that criticism, and I understand the criticism, dramatically, when I do something that feels like… A big pet peeve of mine is coincidence. And I think, it’s like an old sort of story chestnut that it’s okay if a coincidence starts a story because that’s why the story is happening. That odd coincidence caused these two characters to meet, on a train, and now their lives are changed and we see the ripple effect of that. But when a coincidence solves the story, it’s just like, “No, they couldn’t come up with another way of doing it.” Or, “It doesn’t happen that way.” Like, things in reality never happen that way. And now you feel like you’re watching the construction of some puppeteer who’s just moving pieces around however they want, and sometimes not in a very good way. And that’s where the betrayal sort of seeps in and you kind of feel like, “Oh, they’ve broken the contract that they had with me at the beginning of this.” And so, to me, Deadpool, the contract I signed at the beginning of that experience, they never broke that contract. That was very clear in the big print, not even the fine print, what I was getting, right?
David Read
You want to know what, probably, my biggest axe to grind is, out of the entire franchise?
Robert C. Cooper
Of Stargate?
David Read
Yeah.
Robert C. Cooper
Okay. I mean, I’m sure… look, I could probably guess about 100 things…
David Read
Vala disappearing through the ring transporter in the middle of deep space, and winding up safe and sound on a planet in the Ori galaxy. That was probably like, “Okay, that’s a stretch.” For me, that was the one that really… I was like, “How does this work?” But you have to… you have a great character, you have to remove her from the situation and you have an opportunity to bring her back. Sooner or later, you just have to buy it.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I don’t remember… I don’t remember all the mechanics of that particular sequence, for instance, but I know we certainly had a number of people, none stronger than the Paul Mullie, who was, like, the Logic Police in the room and would be like, “No, how does this make sense? And that’s not possible.” And I used to think I sort of leaned more on the side of that. But I’d have to go back and watch that again to remember exactly what the conversation was and why we all felt that was acceptable.
David Read
Yeah, ’cause the gate’s opening and she gets transmitted to the other side. And Daniel is the one who brings it up at the end of that episode, he’s like, “If we wanted to send a message to the Ori, I think we just did.” I think Carter has that line, as well. But it’s those classic tropes, like beaming out at the last second, it’s one of the one of the great moments at the beginning of 200, “Sorry, Furlings, there’s nothing that we can do.” They beam out and let the planet go to hell.
Robert C. Cooper
I mean, look, we resisted the things that we saw in other science fiction shows for so long, but then eventually you’re just like, “Okay, I guess we got to… I guess we’re gonna do that.” We would be like, “No, we’re not going to do beaming.” And then the next thing you know the Asgard are doing beaming.
David Read
Asgard transporters were, I think, inevitable at a certain point. I think that’s one of the things that I hope about, if there is an SG4 at some point, that there is some kind of handicap introduced in the story to — if we are lucky enough to have the continuation of your continuity — some handicaps introduced from the script for some of the technologies. Like you guys did for SGU. You put yourself out there in the middle of nowhere with no support. A Daedalus class ship is not going to fly in and save everyone’s butt.
Robert C. Cooper
Right.
David Read
Absolutely. DanBen wanted to know, “Rob, were there any — and this may be a little bit mental gymnastics here — any deleted scenes over the years that just killed you to pull from the show?”
Robert C. Cooper
Well, it’s kind of a cheat answer, but I would say cutting Threads was one of the most difficult things I had ever done.
David Read
Really? Even with the extended version?
Robert C. Cooper
Well, that’s what I’m saying, is that the extended version was a fight. There was never a lot of… it was never a sure thing that that was going to happen so there were times when I thought those scenes were never going to see the light of day. And I had to really argue for the 90 minute version, and even still, I’m not sure that’s the version… I haven’t checked, but I’m not sure that’s the version that makes it to streamers. I think it’s available on DVD. But I’m not sure…
David Read
Blu-ray has the full version.
Robert C. Cooper
Right, but I’m not sure that’s the one that people watch if they’re looking at it on Netflix or Amazon or whatever. That was a big deal, because I thought there were scenes, particularly the ones with Teal’c that we had to lose at the end. It was Teal’c Bra’tac scene and I was just like, “This is like, major… you know, this is major closure for these characters.” And it was almost like the episode didn’t make sense without the extra stuff. We didn’t have that problem a lot. I mean, in fact, we were often shooting new material to add to shows. Episodes would come in short more often than I think they were long. If they were long it wasn’t because there was too much material, it’s because they were being cut in a way that was too slow and ended up boring. It needed to get cut down. But well, and obviously the Heroes scenario, which we’ve talked about many times, where the episode came in quite a bit long, but Threads was the one where I was really kind of like, “How can I do this? How can I get…? How can I put out an episode that is not what it was intended to be?” And fortunately we kind of sort of won the battle for the longer episode.
David Read
So Syfy wasn’t open arms about this? “Yeah, sure. Give us a longer one.” They fought you?
Robert C. Cooper
I wouldn’t put it on Syfy. I don’t remember if it was entirely them, I mean, part of it was MGM too, it’s just a hassle for them to have two versions. There’s an easy sort of waterfall that happens after you deliver an episode and we’ve talked about it in terms of Brad’s re-cut of the pilot, and how that somehow gets ignored. But that’s not a choice, always, that some person’s making, it’s just they take to show off the shelf and they put it on the… whatever they do, for broadcast.
David Read
It’s not conscious, someone is pulling a file.
Robert C. Cooper
“Two versions, what do I do?” And then the big deal is, certainly for broadcast… we don’t own the extra air. You think it’s easy, but they segment these things. Like, today, in the world of streaming, it doesn’t matter, it’s just sitting there on a platform and who cares what length it is, but in the days when there were commercials that were breaking these things up and you had a format that was exactly 42 minutes and whatever seconds, you couldn’t break that.
David Read
I’m curious to see how you are going to respond to this one.
Robert C. Cooper
Ooh, it’s a setup!
David Read
The characterization is interesting, and it’s not one that I fully agree with, even though I see where they are coming from.
Robert C. Cooper
It comes to the knuckleball.
David Read
This is a paragraph, so feel free to ingest and then chew accordingly. Ciel wanted to know, “Is there any sense, among you or the other Stargate creatives, how little credit the franchise gets for being a more dark and dramatic military science fiction series in it’s Showtime seasons. There were serious examinations of politics, critiques of the military and the US foreign policy in episodes like Cor-ai and 48 Hours, that chilling moment in The Other Side when O’Neill executes a genocidal maniac, begging for his life, knowing that his own government will probably accommodate him in return for his knowledge.” That’s when we lost Rene Auberjonois. “Discussion of nuclear weapons in Meridian. The show could hit it hard when it wanted to and it did so often. People who had become familiar with the generally lighter Syfy seasons said the Stargate became dark when Universe came about, and I say it returned to its roots. Any thoughts on that dynamic?”
Robert C. Cooper
Um, well… you said it was Ciel who…?
David Read
Yes. C I E L, I’m assuming that’s how you pronounce it.
Robert C. Cooper
Hopefully I’m getting that right. But thank you very much for writing that and for recognizing it. I mean, I can’t control what other people think, and so, you know, I’m always happy when I see that we make some list somewhere of… whatever… best shows with a ring in it.
David Read
[laughs hysterically] That’s funny.
Robert C. Cooper
I just… I think I probably disagree, somewhat, that the later seasons didn’t deal with issues. But yeah, I mean, look, it was always a balance and we were certainly always interested in dealing with those issues. And because it was in… we had the veneer of — or at least a little buffer — of science fiction, so it wasn’t literally our world, you could kind of get away with stuff like that. Whether or not we got recognition, we were a somewhat of an obscure show, that first while, and I wondered — I have wondered — what would it be like, now, if we were doing that show. Like, when things go that long, they have a way of snowballing into something bigger, and I wonder how big it would be now, if we were doing it now. Like, I look back at how that show was built, and the fact is, it wouldn’t have lived as long as it did, had it not had that initial run on Showtime.
David Read
I agree.
Robert C. Cooper
So, yeah, look, I’ll be honest. The fact that I don’t think we ever had the strongest marketing or outreach for the show, so I would say I blame a little of that on the push behind the show. Syfy — I think we’ve talked about this before — it was an acquisition, right, and it did very well for them and they liked the show, and they were supportive of the show, but not quite as much as the shows they owned. So, if MGM didn’t promote the show, then Syfy was not going to promote it as strongly as they promoted some of their other stuff.
David Read
I never thought of it that way. Because it wasn’t an in-house thing, originally, with Syfy, like Eureka or Warehouse 13 was.
Robert C. Cooper
Right, it never was. Or Battlestar Galactica.
David Read
Right, that’s true.
Robert C. Cooper
Right. It was MGM. So that was always a bit of an issue. But again, I’m not whining about something that was very successful.
David Read
Right, absolutely. There’s a reason that Dial the Gate is now at almost 20,000 members. Someone is watching. And someone is picking up what you guys threw down.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, and we’ve talked about this, that I’m very grateful that the show continues to be something that people are engaging with. But again, I have to wonder, what would it look like if we were doing it now?
David Read
I’m thinking 8 to 10 episode seasons, it’d be done in four or five years.
Robert C. Cooper
Maybe.
David Read
Things get chewed up and spat out so fast now. The velocity of content now is just crazy.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, they do.
David Read
And even if, like, Stranger Things, which is one of the most — just pulling that out from the sky — four seasons and then [clicks fingers] that’s it. It’s a novelty. I really think that Syfy acquiring it, and then the various spin offs… but I think also, having said that, you had a lot to mine there with the Stargate itself, with the idea behind that. The series itself created its own opportunities as you went along because the story telling was so good.
Robert C. Cooper
Thank you.
David Read
Tatoten wants to know, “Rob, if you could film parts of SG4 in a foreign country, what country would you love to film in?” Unlimited budget! Malta? Switzerland? Iceland?
Robert C. Cooper
Well, all of them! I mean, if you put unlimited budget in there, of course, all of them. There are certainly a lot of budgetary advantages to a number of places right now that many shows are being shot in. But I also found that going other places was fantastic. It’s challenging, you know? It’s challenging to work with crews from other places, who aren’t familiar with the show and the shorthand, so, I mean…
David Read
Or let your camera run out while you’re filming a fall.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah. So, I mean, look, I don’t know how to answer that question. It’s… you know, what’s the story, right? Like, what’s…
David Read
That’s true too.
Robert C. Cooper
I think the best example of reverse engineering was when Brad got offered the opportunity to go to the North Pole and see a submarine come up out of the ice. And he’s like, “Okay, how do I turn that into a story?” But I think I would be like, “Well, what’s the story?”
David Read
I think that that is a terrific example of refining an idea based on circumstance. And that’s a less eloquent way of putting what you just did, where it’s like, we had a conversation about “Where do ideas come from?” And you said that you were very thematic, “I want to tell a story about revenge,” whereas Brad might have this idea of a scene in his head. Where opportunities would come up like that, or where you guys would be seeing something on the news about an… I don’t know, a new development in the GVRD, the forest up there in Vancouver, “Oh, that spot, let’s go there.”
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
Absolutely. Did opportunities like that come up on… for location scouting, were you guys…? How was that done?
Robert C. Cooper
Well, the best example of that was when we shot in New Mexico, for the pilot of Air. At the time, Andy Mikita got some intel from one of the location managers we were working with, that there was something really cool up north, and he took a long drive and looked at these hoodoos that were in the north of New Mexico, and he’s like, “We have to go back there.” And I was like…
David Read
Oh, the Bisti Badlands for season two.
Robert C. Cooper
Right.
David Read
Yeah.
Robert C. Cooper
And he’s still, I’m sure, mad at me to this day for stealing it for that show, for my episode. So, yeah, that was a case where I was like, “That’s a cool look, and what’s a show I can set there?” And that actually was… the confluence of that episode was having a conversation, sitting on the set with Robert Carlyle and having him say, “Oh, you know, I’ve always…” if I said, “What’s something you’ve always dreamed of doing?” We were talking about the fact that science fiction is not one genre, it’s all of them, and that you can literally do anything you want. And I said, “So what’s something you’ve always wanted to do?” And he said, “I always want to do a Western.” And so I was like, “Done!”
David Read
A classic revenge story.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
Right there. New Mexico is one of the… if listeners get a chance, White Sands in season one and then the Bisti Badlands in season two, I’ve been to both places. Absolutely remarkable locations, especially the second one, it’s so alien, but…
Robert C. Cooper
It’s crazy! So, you’re driving along and the crazy thing about it is that it’s all below ground level.
David Read
Yeah, it disappears.
Robert C. Cooper
Right? You’re driving along, perfectly flat. You don’t see anything and all of a sudden, the world just opens up and it’s there and it’s… you’re looking down into it and it’s crazy.
David Read
Just absolutely crazy. Universe was so spectacular, partly because the locations were just sensational, you guys were really on your game at that. Even with interiors and the green screen, when they’re going from gate to gate to gate near the end of season one and we get all these different locations, it just looks spectacular. The money really appeared on screen.
Robert C. Cooper
We had more of it.
David Read
There you go. I’m interested in your thoughts on this. I’m also willing, if you want to just pass this one, that’s fine. Redux, “With the recent accident on the Alec Baldwin movie set, was wondering how gun safety, training, practical effects and overall safety was on Stargate, since it was such an action-oriented show.” James Bamford and I have spoken about this, Dan Shea. This was the core of your show, in many respects and some of it had to have been some of the hardest elements to shoot.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah. Look, that situation was tragic and obviously my heart goes out to everyone who was involved. I don’t know how you cope with that. It’s not, however, the first time someone’s died on set. Stunts are dangerous and I think the people who are good at it, and who are involved, do understand the danger, now. That was not necessarily… that was obviously not a stunt, so that was a situation in which, when I started hearing about it, I was like, “I don’t understand, how did…? What happened? How did that happen?” There’s never… there’s no situation that I’ve ever been involved in, in which you would have a live round on set. The B-side of a gun sequence is always a separate explosion, you know? It’s a harmless little firecracker that’s showing you what… and even then, nowadays, we’ve gotten to a point — even towards the end of Stargate, which was 10 years ago — not having any sort of rounds in the gun. The actors often preferred it, because it would give them some sort of reaction.
David Read
The recoil, yeah, it’s a very physical thing.
Robert C. Cooper
The recoil and the — in the case of the P90’s — the shell ejecting, which, frankly, was a problem as far as injuries, as well, people get burned by them. The P90’s were helpful because that injected the shell straight down, as opposed to a lot of the automatic weapons would come out sideways, so if you were next to somebody, the hot shell would hit them in the arm. I think that happened to Amanda one time, or maybe more than once. And I couldn’t count the number of blanks that we probably fired off over the years.
David Read
Thousands.
Robert C. Cooper
No, it was more like millions. I can’t… because there were times a thousand… Think about the scenes where there would be — outside — where there’d be, people with 20, 30… I mean, it wasn’t like we were kind of cheaping out on the people in the distance, either, it was like… they were firing rounds. And one of the problems I think people don’t probably think about or understand is that the other benefit to having a blank is that you see the muzzle fire, but you don’t always see it, so we were having to fix that anyway, sometimes, because the shutter of the camera is going through at a rate so fast that sometimes you’re not actually even seeing that quick flash of fire, so it’s not even there when it’s supposed to be.
David Read
So, post-production would fix some of those.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, we put the muzzle flashes in.
David Read
I never knew that.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, so then it’s like, “We’re doing it half the time anyways, let’s just do them all the time and make it safer.” But look, I mean, the armorers, the people who handled the weapons were always — and on other shows that I’ve done, on Dirk — were always super professional and I had a ton of confidence in them, but the precautions that would be taken, you would never, ever point a gun at a camera. I mean, even from the point of view of camera preservation, you don’t want to damage a $200,000 camera, let alone hurt a cameraman. There was always bulletproof Lexan in front of the camera and big shields and people would get under these big blankets in case there was some sort of projectile that was fired out. The one incident I’m familiar with, which a blank hurt somebody, it was extremely close range. Anyway, yeah, I mean, look, I can’t think of many scenarios in which visual effects can’t make things 100% safe today. There’s no excuse for really putting someone in danger with a firearm. I mean, there’s going to continue to be, and certainly visual effects are going to shortly get to the point where many stunts are not really necessary. But I mean, look, it’s still a dangerous endeavor and I think, hopefully, the people who do things on sets that are dangerous understand the risks.
David Read
Absolutely.
Robert C. Cooper
And are observing all the safety precautions.
David Read
This particular incident is an evolving story, so it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens.
Robert C. Cooper
I mean, again, I can’t speak to the facts that are kind of coming out or what is true and what is not true. It’s all alleged at the moment. So let’s be…
David Read
…Crystal clear on that.
Robert C. Cooper
Cautious that way.
David Read
Yep. MitchMays — left turn here — “How emotional was Meridian to write?” How quickly did it come out? Did it take time?
Robert C. Cooper
Oh, yeah, I guess I should say it was hard, but I liked writing the emotional stuff. I mean, that was sort of energizing. It was easy to write a scene that had that kind of weight to it and heart to it and really messed with the lead characters’ emotions and connections to each other. Trying to find an entertaining way to write a hallway scene that’s full of exposition, that’s tough.
Robert C. Cooper
You do a million of them! Yeah.
Robert C. Cooper
But that stuff was great, it was fun. Look, I don’t want to say it’s fun to kill Daniel, but…
David Read
Some people would say it’s fun to kill Daniel.
Robert C. Cooper
But it was always very exciting to be able to do the bigger things.
David Read
Did you have Mel Harris in mind when you were writing it? Was Mel on the page there or was it just Oma?
Robert C. Cooper
I mean, I was always a fan of hers.
David Read
Yeah.
Robert C. Cooper
So, I don’t remember exactly when the suggestion came up that she was available, or could be involved.
David Read
She and her son had recently visited the set at some time beforehand.
Robert C. Cooper
Right. I think that may have been what put it in my head.
David Read
Okay. Yeah, what a magnificent performance. To this day, it’s one of her favorite characters. There was something really done there, that kind of Obi-Wan to Luke, kind of mentor situation where… Daniel was the heart and soul of that show, in many respects. You could argue each of the characters had a piece of that, for sure.
Robert C. Cooper
You have to understand, we… I won’t include everyone, I don’t want to speak for everybody, but at least me and a few other people I knew who I was close to on the show, did not think of the show as some sort of big global hit television show. We were just there doing our jobs and having fun on a set and whatever, so when a celebrity or someone who was famous would get in touch with us and say, “We liked the show,” or they want to come visit or whatever, we were like, “Really? Wow. People watch this show?” It was always a bit of a thrill, you know?
David Read
You had your heads down, working.
Robert C. Cooper
We had our heads down and so it was always a bit of a thrill when we found out someone was a fan, and then we’d be like, “Let’s get them on the show. Let’s not waste that fandom.”
David Read
Sure! If they’re watching, especially if they’re watching with their families. That was some of the amazing things about a lot of those characters, a lot of the actors, that you got as the show went on, I mean, Lou Gossett Jr… My gosh! I was thinking, wouldn’t he have been an amazing Landry, if things had gone just a little bit of a different way? And Beau? I mean, what would the show have been without Beau?
Robert C. Cooper
That was the thing with Dan Castellaneta, too. That wasn’t like, “We should cast Dan Castellaneta as this character.” It was like, we had heard Rick had bought some sort of charity table read thing where he got to go — and he was a huge fan of The Simpsons — so obviously, the whole ‘D’oh’ thing was a big… D O H [inaudible]
David Read
D apostrophe O H.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah. That was a big thing for him, and so it was that relationship that started the ball rolling on the idea that maybe we could get Dan to come and do the show. And I don’t remember… I think it was after that The Simpsons decided to do their Stargate thing.
David Read
It was around there, yeah, absolutely. Rick did a Stargate convention on The Simpsons before he had done a Stargate convention. And so we were all like, “Oh, come on!” And then of course, he then went and actually did a Stargate convention, and it was like, “Okay, that’s pretty legit.” But the talent…
Robert C. Cooper
When was Galaxy Quest?
David Read
Galaxy Quest was ’99? What year was that… Galaxy Quest was ’99.
Robert C. Cooper
So two years in, almost three years in.
David Read
Yo want to talk about an amazing parody of of a film right there. I think that one of the better phrases — not to go too off topic — but I think one of the better phrases that’s on the internet right now. “Galaxy Quest is the best Star Trek film ever made.” There’s a thing to be said for parody. Man, if you look at the Orville now. And…
Robert C. Cooper
So, Dean Parisot — I’ve worked with him and I still can’t say his name — I had the opportunity to work with him on… he directed the pilot of Dirk Gently.
David Read
Okay.
Robert C. Cooper
So yeah, I got a chance to really fanboy over that movie and explain to him just how much it meant to a whole writers’ room of science fiction writers. And how sad he also made us feel, to some extent.
David Read
Well, it’s either gonna work or it’s not. When one of those films comes out there — and the Galaxy Quest documentary is one of the better documentaries out there — because they talk about how it was going to be this one thing, and then it kind of became something that was even better. And you can’t… I think it’s a great example, you can’t plan these things out on a spreadsheet because if you do, people will see between the lines what’s going on, they’ll see that they’re being… and feel… they’ll feel that they’re being manipulated.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
Absolutely. Cliff Maxwell — this, we’re kind of piggybacking on what we spoke on before with modern television — “What are some…” because you’ve produced TV, more recently than Stargate, obviously, “What are some of the larger complexities and hurdles of creating the show back then, from potentially creating a new Stargate today? What’s different in the landscape?”
Robert C. Cooper
Wow… Well, look, money is always an issue, you know? What’s the budget going to be? I mean, you look at some of the stuff that’s out there right now and people are like, “Why doesn’t all television look like that?” Well, shows have huge budgets, feature budgets. You have streamers fighting for your subscriptions and your eyeballs and trying to stake out a claim, and so the budgets are enormous. So, how do you compete with that? I’ve always argued that just because just because I drove a — I’m gonna ruin it with whatever brand of car I use here — but it’s like, “Just because I drove a Toyota doesn’t mean I can’t drive a Lamborghini.” I think I’d figure it out. But yeah, that’s a lot of money to spend and it’d be great and I think some people trip and fall a little bit over that, because it then becomes more about “How do we how do we spend the money,” than tell a story that’s going to be engaging. And create characters. I mean, I feel like, personally, I watch a lot of stuff, the very expensive shows, and I feel like they’re beautiful, empty experiences. But look, it’s the same problems, it’s the same issues, it’s getting people on board with your vision, it’s communicating your vision and then putting the pieces together, because there’s so many pieces, it’s a giant machine. There’s cast, there’s crew, who’s your DP, what’s the look of the show, who’s your line producer, who’s gonna make all that money work for you in a good way? If any one of those things goes wrong you could have a disaster on your hands. And so, I mean, that problem hasn’t changed at all.
David Read
That’s certainly true. There are complexities in place that are just not gonna go… well, it’s part of the reason why you are surrounded by the best people that you can surround yourself with.
Robert C. Cooper
Right! Yeah, and so even then, the chemistry may or may not come together in a way that produces this final product. There is an experiment at play. Which is why, again, television, for me, is appealing, because once you do the initial experiment and the show appears, it’s a little easier to sustain it than when you’re doing movies and each one is a whole new thing on its own. You’re starting from scratch every time. At least you get to kind of ride the back of those initial choices when you’re making a television show.
David Read
You were talking about driving Toyotas and Lamborghinis and everything else and in this image flashed through my head…
Robert C. Cooper
We own a Toyota, by the way. I’m not disparaging the brand. It’s a great car.
David Read
The image flashed through my head of you behind the wheel and a story that you told Darren and me, years ago, and I’ve been wanting to have it on the record since I started with you here. About how art kind of imitates life and vice versa, and how things just kind of fall into your orbit that ultimately make it into a TV series. Unending and CCR.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I don’t… what part of the story are you remembering?
David Read
It kept on coming up in your life. Every time you turned around.
Robert C. Cooper
Oh, yeah, that sort of stuff happens, weirdly, a lot. I don’t necessarily attribute any sort of religious miracle to it, but I just sometimes feel like coincidence can’t be ignored, you know? Like, there was a… when you’re talking about something, or thinking about something in particular, and you’re like, “Oh, I wish I had a song for this particular scene and it’s got to be kind of sad, and maybe it has rain in it or whatever.” And you get in the car, and you turn the car on, and that song plays on the radio, you’re like, “Well, maybe somebody’s trying to tell me something.” So, yeah, I mean, there are a number of times where… again, when you’re working on a budget you kind of fall, sometimes, into the mindset of, “I can’t have those things, so I’m not going to think about it.”
David Read
Ah, you’ve gotta reconsider some things.
Robert C. Cooper
Right, yeah, you just don’t go there because it’s like, “I can’t… we can’t do that.” I mean, we ended up… some of the experiences we had towards the end of SG-1 and Atlantis, we learned, “Oh, yeah, guess what, we can find music, like pop music and put it in the show and it can work.” And that’s why we ended up repeatedly doing that, I mean, we were changing the tone a little bit with Universe but there’s a lot more contemporary music in that show. So sometimes you just have to kind of break out of that mindset of this, “We can do that?” And we would ask, and at a certain point, success kind of becomes a little bit more undeniable, and yeah, the answer ends up being “Yes.” You know, like getting to go to Vegas for Atlantis at the end. And that became, “Let’s not discount the possibility,” we’d all sit around and go, “Wouldn’t it be cool if we could actually shoot in Vegas?” And in the old days we would dismiss it because it’s like, “Nobody’s going to give us the money to do that.” But we learned to ask.
David Read
Yeah, it’s like the lottery. If you don’t play you definitely won’t win.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
I think it’s a great example of, if you truly want something, what’s the harm in asking?
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, and you look at that episode — the Vegas episode — and it has the Rolling Stones in it.
David Read
It sure does.
Robert C. Cooper
Johnny Cash.
David Read
Yeah!
Robert C. Cooper
I was like, “Let’s ask! Let’s ask, A; how much it’s gonna cost and B; if the studio’ll let us put it in the show.”
David Read
You’ve already established Sheppard as a Johnny Cash fan, there was no way I really think that you could do Vegas without a Johnny Cash song. Kind of piggybacking on that, Meadyogre — Meady, M E A D Y O G R E, that’s clever — “Any chance of getting…” and I know this is not the tree to bark up, but I still want your rallying cry with me here because this is a drum that I’ve been beating for a long time. “Any chance of getting a more comprehensive collection of Joel Goldsmith’s music,” and I know that that probably has to do with his deal with his family and whoever has access to those files, but man, especially the music in Universe. My gosh, I would give my right arm to have some of those.
Robert C. Cooper
Well, you shouldn’t do that, but…
David Read
Well, no.
Robert C. Cooper
But yeah, it’s… Yeah, look, every time I think about it, I obviously get sad and miss Joel, but it’s a studio thing, I would think, it’s an MGM thing. I don’t know why it doesn’t exist. I know there are some, there is a…
David Read
Definitely.
Robert C. Cooper
I don’t know if it’s available actually on the streaming side, music streaming sites or not but…
David Read
Ark of Truth and Continuum.
Robert C. Cooper
But not the Universe compilation?
David Read
No, Universe has never been released. And that’s the one that I would love to have. There are fake ones that are on YouTube, where someone has divided up the 5.1 and isolated that audio track, but you got all kinds of sounds on that same layer that just kind of muddy it up. But he was brilliant, the man was just a genius.
Robert C. Cooper
Yes he was. So yeah, I’m sorry, I can’t really answer that question, but I would just say, write your letters to MGM.
David Read
Absolutely. Couple more here, and then I’m gonna let you go, Rob. “Is there a…” Goran Andonovski. “Is there a supporting guest character that you can think back on that you would have developed more if given the chance?”
Robert C. Cooper
Well, that’s one that I would need time to go back through that long list on IMDb before I could answer that, but maybe what we’ll do is, I’ll think about that one and we can hit that next time.
David Read
Okay, that’s fair, meditate on that. Shelly Johnson and Gap Stargate, “What advice would you have for aspiring writers, more specifically, the motivation to keep going?”
Robert C. Cooper
I guess the first thing I would say is, I still struggle with that myself. So, you’re not alone, if it’s something you question. I think if you’re… I don’t mean to sort of push you aside, but if you don’t have the… if you’re a writer, you’re not going to be able to quit. It’s something you’ll do whether you’re getting paid for it or not and you’ll continue to try and get paid for it. I mean, it’s something that… look, some people don’t have a good voice and they still sing in the shower.
David Read
Right! They do it for themselves.
Robert C. Cooper
They do for themselves, but you got to listen to… you got to read the room and listen to the world, right? You do the best you can to be a sponge and learn craft, learn skills, learn what is available to you in terms of how to technically be a writer. But then at some point, yeah, you have to have talent, and a story to tell that people want to hear. And so much of the time, it’s timing. I feel like the idea of ‘overnight success’ or ‘flashes in the pan’ are sort of sexy stories, but they don’t… they’re not real and they’re not really very often. So, most of it comes from hard work and persistence. I mean, to me, it’s do good work, be persistent, and that whole idea of, “Oh, well, it’s not it’s not a hundred no’s, before you get a yes,” it’s more than that. It’s a lot more than that. And you have to realize that you’re just looking for those moments where the story you’re telling, and the person you’re telling it to, are the perfect match and that there’s some magical resonance there. I don’t know, it’s a weird thing. It’s like, “How do I find love?” It’s like, “You’ll know it when you find it.”
David Read
It begins and ends with persistence, it sounds like, though.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah.
David Read
So if you’re not doing that, you’re not… again, if you don’t play, you’re not going to win.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, keep doing it. And my argument… look, what I say to writers all the time, is, “As much as it is the story that you’re telling, it’s about you as the writer.” The way you get paid is by being a… not by having a product, you’re not a manufacturer that is trying to sell a product, you’re trying to sell you.
David Read
Right.
Robert C. Cooper
And so an agent, for example, looks at you and it’s not like, “How do I sell this show?” Selling a show is really hard. It’s, “How do I put this person on staff so people get to know them?” And they’re always thinking about it in terms of, not really in terms of your career, they’re thinking about in terms of money, “How do I make money off this person?” You are the product for those agents for the people who are going to get you work. So, if we’re talking about screenwriting, I mean, find ways to demonstrate that you’re a valuable tool, that you’re a valuable piece of the puzzle that can fit into any… not any situation, but specific situations. So, you’re writing multiple examples of genres that you want to be a part of, that you want to be in. You don’t want to be too broad a swath of types of shows, or types of writing, because people won’t know what you are and what you want to be, you gotta be a little more specific. You can branch out a little bit more later and sort of redefine yourself, but, at least initially, you got to have a bit more of a target in mind. And then demonstrate that you’re more than just a one trick pony, and that it’s not just that one script you’ve written that you’re trying to sell and turn into a big show. It’s about you being a valuable piece of a puzzle in a writers room, getting to know people. You move up, they start to like you, trust you, realize you deliver on a regular basis and then they want to develop with you. And then they’re like, “How do we… what shows do you want to make?” And then suddenly, now you’ve gotten to a level where you’re respected enough that people trust you. Because it’s not like with a book where they can see everything on the page, and even then there’s a risk involved, maybe you won’t find an audience, but the cost of putting it out there is so much smaller than the tens and tens of millions of dollars you have to put into making a television show. And nobody really knows the formula for success and so what they do is they bank on people who have done it before or have some value that they see in the marketplace that they can blame when it goes wrong, you know? That they can say, “Well, yeah, well, you know, it was whatever, it was this star and producer and that director, so it’s not my fault, basically, you know, it’s succeeded.” So, you have to become someone in the person’s eyes who controls that money, who controls the scenario, that they can trust, that they know is going to deliver. Well, how does that happen? It doesn’t happen from one sample script, it happens from you working with them. From you getting a track record that speaks to the market that they can look at and go, “Yeah, I believe in that person.” Yeah, it may seem like a long road, I don’t know if I’ve really answered that person’s question, but you have to think of yourself not as the producer of products, but as the machine that you’re building.
David Read
Absolutely. Thank you for that answer, I really appreciate that answer. The last thoughts I’m going to leave to Chris DeLaGarza and maybe you can comment on the impact. “No question for Mr. Robert C. Cooper, I just want to say thank you, sir. I’m an Army vet with PTSD. I have binge watched Stargate at least five times. The show is relatable on a military level for me, and was there for me when I needed it.”
Robert C. Cooper
Well, I guess I accept that thank you with the utmost humility and humbleness and say, “No, thank you, for what you went through.” And, yeah, I mean, I can’t really express that strongly enough, but what I do is not the same.
David Read
Is it surprising to hear those stories? Or is it a comfort to know that we created a product that is resonating? And all the work that you guys did with the US military and making sure that it was correct, has paid off?
Robert C. Cooper
No, I don’t think it’s surprising to hear that, I understand, I haven’t been through that, by any means, but I’ve been through some things and I know that when I’m having a hard time, or when I’ve been through something, and I look, often, to entertainment to get me through it, or to find some commonality of experience, or some way in which I can rationalize what I went through, or even just to escape for a little while and take my mind off it. So, I’m not just the maker of the product, I’m a consumer as well and I understand the value in that. So yeah, I’m glad that whatever I did had some impact in that way, but I definitely have experienced it myself.
David Read
What are you consuming right now, that you recommend that we consume? What’s good? What’s on the table right now?
Robert C. Cooper
Wow. Oh, boy, that’s a tough question. Well, I’ll tell you what I’m currently… ’cause my youngest is 14, there’s a bunch of stuff she hasn’t seen, so she is… we tend to take turns. She kind of indoctrinates me into the things she likes to watch and then I, in turn, try and find things that I’ve liked over the years that I think she might like. And we’re actually going through the Cumberbatch Sherlocks right now.
David Read
I have had it on my list for years, and I have…
Robert C. Cooper
You’ve never seen it? Oh, are you in for a treat.
David Read
I started A Study in Pink and I fell asleep. I woke up and all my friends were gone. They went home.
Robert C. Cooper
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if there was drinking involved in that.
David Read
There wasn’t. I know he’s good, though.
Robert C. Cooper
Oh, my God. Look, that show — and I’ve worked with a couple of the directors — and, yeah, when it’s great, it’s really great. The brilliant episodes are just magic to watch.
David Read
Okay.
Robert C. Cooper
It’s like, I’m jealous. I mean, there’s a couple of misses in there, but, I’m not gonna…
David Read
Not bad for eight or nine shows.
Robert C. Cooper
Fantastic. So yeah, I really enjoy that. And… what else have I watched recently that I’ve loved? I mean, I have a kind of eclectic taste and I also, frankly, to be honest with you, watch a lot of sports and cooking shows.
David Read
Good for you, absolutely.
Robert C. Cooper
But also because it’s just easier on my brain. When I watch something that’s good, that’s great. But when I watch something that I… I find that it’s just frustrating, to see stuff out there that’s… maybe I’m old fashioned and it’s not like the good old days, you know?
David Read
Well, one of the questions that I skipped over asking you because we kind of just went a different direction was, I imagine there’s some writers out there who believe in writing what you know, and what it is that you consume and then there’s others who could probably watch Judge Judy and then go work on a film noir script.
Robert C. Cooper
Right. I did just finish season three of Sex Education, which I absolutely loved.
David Read
Okay.
Robert C. Cooper
On Netflix.
David Read
That’s Asa Butterfield’s show, I think, right?
Robert C. Cooper
Yes. It took a genre, and really pushed it to a place that genre had never gone before in a way that I felt needed to happen. And spoke to a generation in a way that they hadn’t been spoken to before. And just did it was such talent and class and humor and sensitivity. It’s really well done.
David Read
Did you see Tales from the Loop?
Robert C. Cooper
No, I haven’t.
David Read
It’s beautiful. It’s like two parts… It’s one part beautiful, one part awe, and one part sad. And it really took me aback. It’s just like the Impressionist — it’s not so much Impressionist work — it’s based on paintings from the 1960’s of this retro future. It’s fantastic. It’s eight episodes, limited series. Highly recommend it.
Robert C. Cooper
Cool. I’ll check that out.
David Read
My friend, thank you so much for joining me once again. As always, this is terrific. I had fun, we had a great time and I look forward to having you back on later this year.
Robert C. Cooper
Thank you very much for continuing to have me and thank you to everyone who wrote in and asked questions and if we didn’t get to them maybe we can get to some of them next time. But thanks for continuing to engage with the show and yeah, appreciate it.
David Read
My thanks once again to Robert C. Cooper for joining us on this episode. He’s always terrific to sit down and talk with, he’s just insightful and his stories are always great. Dial the Gate is brought to you every week for free and we do appreciate you watching. If you want to support the show further, consider buying yourself some of our themed swag. Holidays are coming up. We’re now offering t-shirts, tank tops, sweatshirts and hoodies for all ages, as well as mugs and other accessories in a variety of sizes and colors at My Spread Shop. Click on a specific design to see what items are being offered. Checkout is fast and easy. Just visit dialthegate.myspreadshop.com and thanks so much for your support. This episode is pre-recorded, so I don’t have a specific lineup for you ready to go at this point, so keep an eye on social media and everything else that’s happening. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider hitting that Like button. It does make a difference with YouTube’s algorithm and helps the audience grow. We’re almost at 20,000 users now and that’s all thanks to you guys sharing the show and enjoying it. If you think there’s a Stargate friend out there who will enjoy the show, please consider sharing it with them as well. My thanks to Producer Linda “GateGabber” Furey, as well as my moderating team Sommer, Tracy, Keith, Jeremy, Rhys, Antony, and big thanks to Frederick Marcoux at Concepts Web. He is our web developer on Dial the Gate who’s making the new website possible. Dial the Gate is now available on Apple and Google podcasts. There’s about a week delay there because this is the main source for the show, so I want to give everyone a chance to come here first, and then it’ll be picked up on iTunes. So, that’s another way to enjoy the show now. One of the things that people are going to notice is that some of the episodes are missing on iTunes — the podcast catchers — is because those episodes are the ones that featured artwork, so it was all visual, so there was nothing really to say. So I wasn’t going to upload those. Anyhow, so you may notice those holes in the numbers and that’s why. My name is David Read for Dial the Gate. Thanks so much for tuning in everybody, I appreciate your time, and we’ll see you on the other side.